tenkan or irimi?

[RickB]

      The question was asked in a recent class that I was instructing:  "when do we do tenkan and when do we irimi?"  The answer I gave (expecting hearty laughter and getting perhaps one or two chuckles):   "when Sensei asks for one or the other."  The questioner persisted:  "No, I mean, in a real situation.  Say... rondori, for example."  Our head instructor happened to be observing the class and offered an answer.  He explained that this choice should be determined by how other ukes (not the one you're making the choice about) are spatially situated on the mat.  Your choice of doing irimi or tenkan would depend upon where that leaves you (nage) in relationship to the other ukes.  
     Does the question have relevance in situations where there is just one attacker such as a one-person rondori . . . or for that matter a real one-person attack in the street?  My feeling about it is that ,while techniques based on either irimi or tenkan could be effective depending on the nature of the attack, the direction and continuity of uke's ki should be determinative.   It seems that if uke's ki continues coming during and even after the strike or grab, tenkan would be the most respectful response to uke's ki.  If uke's ki reverses during or at the end of the attack -- either because he grabs and pulls back or because he comes to a stop after grabbing or striking -- irimi would be the best choice.  In other words, the answer could be another question -- asked by nage to uke --"which direction do you want to go now?"  
   Anyone care to be more specific . . . or have a different take on this?

[J. Nachtrab]

I've thought of it the same way - irimi or tenkan depending on the circumstances, positioning of other attackers, etc.  The only difficulty with that (particularly in randori) is that by the time the irimi/tenkan technique is begun, anyone else in the vicinity has probably moved, thus spoiling your carefully chosen plan.

I've come up with another way of thinking of irimi/tenkan which, admittedly, stems from my rather more aggressive approach to aikido.  To me, it's more of a yin/yang approach - strong, penetrating yang attacks are met with tenkan, a more receptive and yin way to avoid and redirect them.  More timid, hesitant, or smaller attacks are met with irimi, which engulfs and overwhelms the attack.  Whatever the attack - yin or yang, big or small, fast or slow - the defense is just the opposite.

Here's another take, from a book I'm just finishing - Ellis Amdur's Dueling With O-sensei.  In it, he talks about how "there is no such thing as tenkan...without irimi":

...I suggested that tenkan occurs when one attempts irimi and is neutralized.  One then blends with the opponent's counter and leads them through the use of tenkan ... I believe that if you attempt to accomplish tenkan without an entering/engaging move, if only on a psychological level, then all you will be doing is dodging or spinning, and you will be tracked by your opponent like a heat-seeking missile.

I'm still digesting a lot of this book (an excellent read, by the way - highly recommended) and mulling things like this in particular.  It's an interesting idea.

[Adam]

"there is no such thing as tenkan...without irimi"

For that matter, there is no irimi without tenkan.

Strategy, or not. An attempted irimi technique that "fails," or not. Irimi is always there. Tenkan is always there. For me, in the case of randori or jiyu-waza, determining which occurs is usually better visited in hindsight. Close the distance and put yourself into position to fit with the attack. Then you lead, go with the flow, dance, shake hands ... whatever.

Take a look at shomenuchi ikkyo irimi. As the attack is moving in to split your skull, you move your hands into position (ikkyo waza) to match (or fit with) your opponents ki correct? No collision, soft hands ... for a moment - tenkan! But wait, the technique calls for irimi. Now that everything fits/is matched/harmonized, blah, blah, blah... you redirect your attackers ki (irimi!), in this case, back to where it came from.

I guess what I'm getting back to is that ideally, tenkan should not be something that occurs when irimi fails. Irimi happens. Tenkan happens. S*** happens. There is no failure. Just respect your opponents ki. Of course it's not always as easy as it sounds. I'm just trying to distill and simplify everything down, so that someday my little gray cells (along with the rest of me) will finally just let things happen.

Oh well, 20 more years ought to do it! (Optimistic, I know.)

thanks,
Adam

[RickB]

       Interesting.  Irimi and tenkan are inherently "contained" within each other AND tenkan can be seen as a response to a "failed" irimi.  The question remains, however:  how -- or when -- does one know this?  If nage is right there "in the moment," I suppose (s)he knows the very moment that irimi fails.  This really does require mind and body unification in the sense that the mind must "know" (and respond) immediately and body must follow mind instantaneously.  This ideal situation assumes, of course, that mind is right there "in the moment."  
    So this leads to another question.  Recognizing that we're all slightly or largely imperfect (to one degree or another), does it ever make sense to decide "in advance"?  Sensei gave the example, for instance, where one chooses to do irimi or tenkan (in a randori), not based upon the attacker's ki but instead based upon the location of other ukes.  Does this require some degree of "forcing" uke to continue or reverse the direction of his/her ki?  Or are irimi and tenkan so "contained within" each other, that it ultimately doesn't matter -- either will work . . . so long as it's done "correctly"?

[Adam]

... So this leads to another question.  Recognizing that we're all slightly or largely imperfect (to one degree or another), does it ever make sense to decide "in advance"?

Sure, it makes sense. Strategy, uke size/speed/strength, direction of the sun, poisonous reptiles, walls, etc. are factors which will require a decision. However, once you've made a decision, be prepared for the fact that it may have been the wrong one (since, as you've suggested, we are imperfect). Then, change your mind, if possible.

...Does this require some degree of "forcing" uke to continue or reverse the direction of his/her ki?

I'm going to go way out, on the outer edge of the limb here and say, "no." (slides back over to the solid trunk).

Or are irimi and tenkan so "contained within" each other, that it ultimately doesn't matter -- either will work . . . so long as it's done "correctly"?

(scootching back out on that limb) Yes.

Back to the shomenuchi ikkyo irimi example I mentioned earlier... If we are practicing irimi and the only way to throw our uke is with tenkan, something is wrong. I mean, the instructor asked for irimi, right? So, with a little help from the instructor and from the uke, we should figure out how to make irimi work (or tenkan). I mean, as we practice it, shomenuchi is pretty straight forward. Hand comes up - hand comes down - aiming for nage's head. A sane person might think that tenkan is the only option against a 6'4", 2**+lbs, former construction worker's hands, dropping the hammer on our head. But as sensei explained to you, tenkan may not be an option.

If timing is right, uke's balance is taken, and nage has maintained one-point, nage's pretty much in the driver's seat.

thanks,
Adam
"mostly rambling at this point."

[J. Nachtrab]

For that matter, there is no irimi without tenkan.

I'm not sure I buy that.  I can understand Mr. Amdur's idea of and engaging or entering motion being necessary for tenkan - without it is becomes just a simple avoidance or "running away" movement.  If the reverse is also true, it exists on a level that is beyond my perception (which is not to say that isn't possible).

I think getting into the "tenkan is irimi, irimi is tenkan, there is no sthingy, etc." approach is a little too dismissive of the physical requirements of aikido technique.  But, I'll admit I'm less interested in the philosophical asides than some.

Take a look at shomenuchi ikkyo irimi. As the attack is moving in to split your skull, you move your hands into position (ikkyo waza) to match (or fit with) your opponents ki correct? No collision, soft hands ... for a moment - tenkan!

Again, I don't see how this automatically equates to tenkan.  Maybe I'm just keeping too much of a physical perspective, but to me tenkan and irimi are just directional movements and approaches, not "collision" vs. "non-collision".  You can enter into an attack without collision, with soft hands, and still be all irimi, without any semblance of tenkan.

I guess what I'm getting back to is that ideally, tenkan should not be something that occurs when irimi fails. Irimi happens. Tenkan happens. S*** happens. There is no failure. Just respect your opponents ki.

I don't think that was the point of the original idea I quoted.  It was that perhaps tenkan requires some form of engaging or entering committment in order to be effective, not that tenkan only works when irimi does not.

Of course it's not always as easy as it sounds. I'm just trying to distill and simplify everything down, so that someday my little gray cells (along with the rest of me) will finally just let things happen.

If you're working towards simplicity, then why do these exchanges inevitably give me a headache?  Ah well, at least I'm thinking about it.    

[J. Nachtrab]

Sensei gave the example, for instance, where one chooses to do irimi or tenkan (in a randori), not based upon the attacker's ki but instead based upon the location of other ukes.  Does this require some degree of "forcing" uke to continue or reverse the direction of his/her ki?

See, I don't think one or the other ever requires you to "force" uke to do anything.  It's just taking them in different directions.   Irimi or tenkan, it doesn't really matter.  Uke's ki is coming in the same direction either way - at you.

Or are irimi and tenkan so "contained within" each other, that it ultimately doesn't matter -- either will work . . . so long as it's done "correctly"?

I don't think of them being "contained within" each other so much as just different approaches, like left vs. right.  When you come to a tree in your way, you can go left or right around it, depending on the surrounding circumstances.  But does it really matter to the tree?

Sorry, that's kind of an airy sounding analogy, but hopefully you get what I mean.  

[Adam]

I'm not sure I buy that.

That's okay, I'm not selling.

I can understand Mr. Amdur's idea of and engaging or entering motion being necessary for tenkan - without it is becomes just a simple avoidance or "running away" movement.  If the reverse is also true, it exists on a level that is beyond my perception (which is not to say that isn't possible).

In my perception, the reverse is not only true, but essential.

I think getting into the "tenkan is irimi, irimi is tenkan, there is no sthingy, etc." approach is a little too dismissive of the physical requirements of aikido technique.  But, I'll admit I'm less interested in the philosophical asides than some.

If you're referring to my post as containing philosophy or dismissing anything, then I was apparently not very clear. Oh wait, are you referring to my statement, "there is no failure"? Perhaps it is a philosphy. Is, "without collision" a philosophy?

but to me tenkan and irimi are just directional movements and approaches, not "collision" vs. "non-collision".

Exactly. A direction. Never a collision. I haven't stated otherwise.

I was beginning to go quote by quote, but I think that would have just muddied the water. Look, for me tenkan is moving with your opponent's ki. Irimi is redirecting it (usually back to where it came from). For a moment, you can move with your opponents ki before you redirect it. Or you can redirect it (or your opponents mind) before you move fully with it.

If I ignore either direction in attempting the other, then there will be a collision. Look at a good volleyball setter. The hands of the setter will absorb the ball by moving with it (tenkan) while the arms are pushing away from the body. The hands follow through to rediret the ball upwards and away (irimi). Done wrong, it's a held ball (bad timing) or a ball that has been poked at without control and with the risk of jamming the setter's fingers or thumbs (collision). This image is what I had in mind for shomenuchi ikkyo irimi.

As far as getting Mr. Amdur's point, I was referring to the quote you posted, "..I suggested that tenkan occurs when one attempts irimi and is neutralized." Where I don't agree with the notion that tenkan only occurs with the neutralization of irimi, I do agree with the rest of his quote.  But then again, my mind does not always have a firm grasp.

All neat stuff!

[J. Nachtrab]

Look, for me tenkan is moving with your opponent's ki. Irimi is redirecting it (usually back to where it came from). For a moment, you can move with your opponents ki before you redirect it. Or you can redirect it (or your opponents mind) before you move fully with it.

If I ignore either direction in attempting the other, then there will be a collision.

I think I'm beginning to grasp your point - the volleyball analogy helped.  If I understand you correctly, you're comparing the slight leading or blending movements we might do before an iriminage or ikkyo irimi as having some aspect of "tenkan".  At one point I might have disagreed with that, but upon reflection it's as much tenkan as the slight engaging or entering motion before a full tenkan is "irimi".  Both could be small, almost psychological movements and yet still be the "irimi before the tenkan" or the "tenkan before the irimi".  Is that kind of what you're getting at?

As far as getting Mr. Amdur's point, I was referring to the quote you posted, "..I suggested that tenkan occurs when one attempts irimi and is neutralized." Where I don't agree with the notion that tenkan only occurs with the neutralization of irimi, I do agree with the rest of his quote.

Again, I'm not sure the point of that idea was that tenkan only occurs when irimi does not.  At least, I didn't take it that way.  Whether the irimi is neutralized or not, it can still be taken to tenkan.  

[Adam]

Jason,

Both could be small, almost psychological movements and yet still be the "irimi before the tenkan" or the "tenkan before the irimi".  Is that kind of what you're getting at?

Yeah, pretty much. But you know, as I sit here thinking about it, sometimes there is "irimi before tenkan" for an irimi movement such as Ki Society's yokomenuchi kokyunage irimi (the third one in taigi #3). Hmmm... move along folks. Nothing to see here. Just my brain starting to lock up.

I'm not sure if this thread has headed anywhere Rick had originally intended it. I know I might have gone on a tangent, trying to form a coherent thought or two. Although I must say, after rereading the thread, I forgot about your yin/yang approach:

strong, penetrating yang attacks are met with tenkan, a more receptive and yin way to avoid and redirect them.  More timid, hesitant, or smaller attacks are met with irimi, which engulfs and overwhelms the attack.

That seems to fit. I'll keep an eye out for that feeling, the next time I'm on the mat.

And finally, I'll adjust Mr. Amdur's quote, which I admit may have been taken entirely out of context, to allow me to see the point:

"..I suggested that tenkan can occurs when one attempts irimi and is neutralized."

[kironin]

I have only scanned this quickly, but my response to students asking this sort of question is simply,

when do I irimi ?
"when the attacker asks me to."

when do I tenkan ?
"when the attacker asks me to."

freestyle is all about respecting your opponents ki and moving appropriately without attemptng to anticipate (no mind).

irimi, tenkan, irimi tenkan, tenkan irimi, irimi irimi, tenkan tenkan, etc.
all are just forms, snapshots on a continuum,  not goals.

Craig