Kote-oroshi

[jacooper]

Hi Guys,
I'm new to the forum and I have a question.

I've practiced ki-aikido on & off under a couple of different Senseis in the UK over the last serveral years.
Both Senseis at one stage belonged to the Ki Federation which is an organisation formed when the Chief Instructor, Williams Sensei, broke away from Tohei Sensei. My senseis then,indenpendently from each other, broke away from Williams Sensei but continue to teach Ki-Aikido. Both teach kotegaeshi.

I have a copy of the excellent Ki Aikido Basics video (part 2 on order) produced by Kashiwaya Sensei in which he talks about and demostrates Kote-oroshi which looks pretty much like kotegaeshi to me.

Can someone explain the difference please?

Thanks,

J.

[Saint Louis Ki Society]

J.

Koteoroshi is the same as kotegaeshi. Only the name has been changed to protect the innocent (that's a joke based on an old TV show here in the states). Tohei Sensei started calling it Koteoroshi because so many people misunderstand the technique. Kotegaeshi can be translated as "turn wrist out". Koteoroshi means something more like "take wrist down". The distinction in the Japanese names  is lost on those who don't know Japanese. I've heard some in Ki Society say that the teaching changed, but that is not so. There is a book from 1964 that clearly shows Tohei Sensei going down at the end of the technique. There are styles of Aikido that do this differently. It's hard to judge just from the relative position of the hands, uke's or nage's. I find the best way to judge is to look at the direction the nage's hands and arms are traveling at the end of the technique, when the uke begins falling. Are they headed down, diagonally, or in a verticle direction? Down is correct. Also at that point, the body should not be twisting. It should look much like cutting down with a sword.

[Adam]

Just thought I'd add to sensei's great, "that's-it-in-a-nutshell" explanation.

With the way I learned it (even ten years ago), how much a wrist might be twisted had a lot to do with uke's movement, when done correctly. While nage may be applying the technique straight down (just like the hitori-waza), uke is also in motion from the earlier portion of the technique, sending them around and off the line of nage's "cut" (into the back-fall variety). Hence, uke's wrist is twisted naturally, without any extra gyrations, or torque from nage. Given that, it becomes pretty dangerous to try and twist anything. Also makes uke mad.

So, wrist down, doesn't necessarily mean the absence of a turned or twisted wrist. But the forearm/wrist/hand should ideally be returned to uke.

Anyway, the best kotegaeshi/koteoroshis are the ones that feel like a kokyunage. You're just swept off your feet or sent flying forward, instead of falling for fear of a snapped wrist.

[J. Nachtrab]

I'll admit my Japanese is rusty, but the difference in verb forms contained in kotegaeshi versus koteoroshi gives some clue as to why the name was changed.  Kote is wrist.  The gaeshi comes from the verb kaesu, which is best translated (as Adam's link details) as "to return (something)".  Oroshi comes from the verb orosu, which means to drop or take down.  The emphasis seems to be a shift from the focus being on the wrist/hand area and the manipulation of it back against uke and more toward a focus on dropping the hands when throwing.  

An unnecessarily pedantic explanation for what is essentially a change in terminology.  Understanding the difference does give some insight into why it was altered.

[Adam]

An unnecessarily pedantic explanation for what is essentially a change in terminology.  Understanding the difference does give some insight into why it was altered.

With stuff like this (posting on the web), I guess you pretty much have to be pedantic.

I had wanted to edit my post, concerning the "return" part, since I know it didn't properly convey what I feel at the dojo. Your post addressed what I was reaching for.

What more appropriately happens when someone knocks a good koteoroshi on me, is that my body wants to return to my wrist, after the down action of the technique.

thanks.

[RandyC]

Okay, here I've gotta say "I don' know bout dat!"

I have the blessing(?) of being able to travel a fair amount in my job, and like to visit different dojo in my travels.  One that I visit a couple of times a year is a AAA dojo (http://www.seibukan-aiki.com/) in North Carolina.  I was just there this week.

When Tajiri sensei taught what looked to me like our "koteoroshi", he still calls it "kotegaeshi".  And from all I can see, it looks like he is actually twisting uke's wrist!  His uke always flips over into a very satisfactory and noisy breakfall.

Of course, even there, I always perform the wrist technique the way Rubbert sensei taught me   and my uke's still go down, maybe not as noisily, but they go down.  And Tajiri sensei never corrects me on that (on lots of other things but not that).

He demonstrated kotegaeshi in two ways from a katatedori attack.  The first one was a tenkan that was exactly as I described it above.  And the second one seemed much simpler; step to the side, hold your hand (the one attached to uke) in front of your face like holding a mirror, and using your other hand from underneath, peel uke's hand off (fingers to the non-thumb side).  Then, still holding on to uke's hand, flip your now-free hand over to fold uke's fingers in and bring her/his hand straight down (kotegaeshi).  This is an extreme twist to uke's wrist/arm and Tajiri sensei gave a big caution about the danger of going too far.

When we practiced that one, I made sure I picked out the smallest, gentlest person there, and we both practiced it very carefully!!!  

Randy C

[RandyC]

Oops.  One mistake on reflection... on that last description, fingers to the "thumb" side.  Then it makes cents.

RandyC